Apparently, Sayid Doesn't Know The Rules Yet

[David3]

Based on the rules, Ben can't be dead. He'll survive. If 2007 Ben took off his shirt, he'd likely have a bullet hole scar on his chest.

[Stephen]

Holy crap.

Sayid killed Harry Potter!

This show is seriously getting out of control. I felt like tons of time this episode was wasted on Sayid's trivial BS. It's cool to know why he was headed for Guam, but i feel it could have been handled in much less time.

So did Harry Potter light that VW on fire and run it into O-town? Maybe the past is like a voodoo doll and Ben will suddenly feel like he got shot.

[You-Know-Who]

But the next episode is called Spoiler

"Whatever Happened, Happened"

, so I wonder what that means. Part of me wants to believe that Ben is really dead and that Sayid has changed the whole future and that that somehow ties into the end of the show, but that probably won't happen.

[You-Know-Who]

Yes, Stephen I think Harry Potter did light the VW van on fire. Unless maybe it was his drunk dad or something?

[Perry]

Based on the rules, Ben can't be dead. He'll survive. If 2007 Ben took off his shirt, he'd likely have a bullet hole scar on his chest.

I bet the next episode has that scene in it. Ben wakes up in the infirmary and we see the bullet hole.
I loved the episode though. Nice that the whole Sayid getting out thing was very different than most foreseeable options.

[muttonboy]

I was really struggling with that (how Sayid can kill Ben, etc) until it donned on me: if I just ignore EVERYTHING Damon and Carlton have ever said in their podcasts/interviews about ANYTHING, then I can just enjoy the show. I mean, I keep trying to reconcile what they say with what is happening on the show, and I think if I just ignore them I'll be more stable. So, within the context of the show there is a struggle between "whatever happened happened" and being able to change the past (literally, Sayid killing Ben, or otherwise, like making up for past mistakes), which for me is now untainted (ie, no more Darlton-whispers saying, 'noitcerroc esrouc'). Ugh....

[David3]

Regardless of which theory of time travel you subscribe to, Ben can't be dead.

If It Happened, It Always Happened
We know Ben's alive through at least 2007, therefore we know he survived the time he was shot as a boy.

This makes the meeting of Sayid and Henry Gale in the Swan even weirder. Ben had to have been like, oh shit here's this guy that shot me 27 years ago and now he's hear to be the crap out of me.

You Can Change The Past
Even if you believe that the past can be changed, Ben has to still be alive. Without Ben alive in 2004, the chain of events that sends them all back to 1977 never happens. That means Sayid would have never shot Ben. It would create a never-ending loop. In other words, a paradox.

[Perry]

Regardless of which theory of time travel you subscribe to, Ben can't be dead.
...
You Can Change The Past
Even if you believe that the past can be changed, Ben has to still be alive. Without Ben alive in 2004, the chain of events that sends them all back to 1977 never happens. That means Sayid would have never shot Ben. It would create a never-ending loop. In other words, a paradox.

I don't think this is the case.
Although I strongly believe the whatever happened, happened stuff is what's goin on, for the people that think that change is possible, Ben could be dead. Alternate timelines created, paradox galore, if you subscribe to the theory of being able to change things, there's no way you can do it without a paradox, unless ofcourse you change something like twisting your foot a different way to change the direction a piece of grass stands.
As I said though, I don't think changes are happening.

Ben's fine, Jack can fix him up easy. He may seem like just any old Work Man, but let me tell you, I see some potential in him as one of the greatest surgeons the world has ever seen. (I made myself puke, sorry)

Oooooh, you reckon Ben will start talking about god? I bet he'll be lying in bed at the barracks' infirmary praying for a surgeon to rescue him... and wodu know, Jack falls from the sky... again. (Ben doesn't know about Jack yet so let's let him think he fell out of the sky for him, or at least from the sub)

[David3]

I don't think this is the case.
Although I strongly believe the whatever happened, happened stuff is what's goin on, for the people that think that change is possible, Ben could be dead. Alternate timelines created, paradox galore, if you subscribe to the theory of being able to change things, there's no way you can do it without a paradox, unless ofcourse you change something like twisting your foot a different way to change the direction a piece of grass stands.
As I said though, I don't think changes are happening.

For people who believe things can be changed, you can change things without paradox. You can change anything as long as the outcome doesn't prevent you from making the change in the first place. The paradox is created when the thing you changed prevents you from being able to make the change. If you go back and kill your grandfather when he was a kid, then you wouldn't be around to travel back in time to kill him, which means he doesn't get killed, which means you can go back and kill him, and the circle keeps going.

It really doesn't matter though, because, like you, I believe that he was always shot. It's probably one of the events that turns him into the man he is today. You feel sorry for him because he really wasn't a bad person up to this point.

I wonder what Sayid's motive is. Does he think he's changing the future, or is he just seeking revenge?

I think Jack is going to be reluctant to help Ben at first. He'll probably think that they'll all be better off without Ben. At that point, someone will share Faraday's "whatever happened, happened" theory and Jack will fix Ben.

[JanicM]

I think the writers were just going for a cheap shocker at the end of the episode. It's not the first time someone survived a gunshot on the island ;)

Dartlon mentioned on the latest podcast that Sayid is "challenging the rule of a non-changeable future" and that we have to see if "course correction" will come into play or not. Apparently there are two stances on what a non-changeable timeline is:
#1 Everything always happened exactly like we see it (Sayid always shot Ben, etc)
#2 The past didnt actually exist like we see it but any changes that are made, will be course corrected so that it is in line with the future.

It seems like Darlton can't really decide if they want parallel universes or a completely non-changeable timeline without paradoxes ...

[David3]

It seems like Darlton can't really decide if they want parallel universes or a completely non-changeable timeline without paradoxes ...

That's the exact feeling I got after listening to the podcast. On one hand, you've got Ben handing Sayid a book called A Separate Reality. On the other hand you've got the title to next week's episode.

[CorpsesAndChaos]

this story telling device of "if it happened - it always happened" is useless. all it does is place the Losties into an archive of events that they can participate in 'or not'. we basically get to see history that happened with them as participants... until Desmond comes back to the island to change it. it eliminates 'flashbacks' where we'd have to watch a set of characters that we are alien to that would probably be quite boring. it also keeps their pay structure working getting the main characters involved. big whoop. Philip K. Dick creamed his coffin - now move the story forward toward the endgame already.

- they changed a line in the episode when Ben and everyone was at the docks. at first Sayid threatened both Ben and Jack, in this version its only Ben. their was also a boat with "illusion" written on it for its name.

[CorpsesAndChaos]

#1 Everything always happened exactly like we see it (Sayid always shot Ben, etc)
#2 The past didnt actually exist like we see it but any changes that are made, will be course corrected so that it is in line with the future.

It seems like Darlton can't really decide if they want parallel universes or a completely non-changeable timeline without paradoxes ...

this is just corny writing mechanism in my opinion. i get that its fun and a TV show but trying to stick to all these deteriministic trajectories where the "universe", as some autonomous dictator, pushes everything back into its place is just goofy. is that how evolution occurred too? and is suicide the ultimate subversion of the universe or did the universe cause that too? el-oh-el

cheeeeeeeeseball

[Jen]

I think this will illuminate these issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLhfxI8T2cU

[goodfellow408]

I think this will illuminate these issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLhfxI8T2cU

omg hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Jen you're awesome.

I also believe Ben did not die from this gunshot. Even though it's annoying that Sayid, who always finished the job, and is a trained assasin, can't properly shoot & kill a 14 yr old. Ugggh.

BUT, I disagree that it would create a paradox if he is dead. If Ben is in fact dead in this timeline, then the timeline that Sun/Lapidus are in is some sort of alternate timeline resulting from Ben's death. When they go to Othersville, it seems strangely different (despite being 3 years uninhabitted). It still has Dharma signs hanging in front of the buildings, and the Dharma photographs on the walls. I'm pretty sure these signs were not there when we saw the others living in Dharma-ville in 2004. So Ben dies... Dharma is never purged... the others never take over Othersville.. this weird alternate timeline is created, where Dharmaville is creepy and desolate and surrounded by mist. Oh and also Christian Sheppard hanging out in there, being weird. As he often is.

--Josh--

[Perry]

I also believe Ben did not die from this gunshot. Even though it's annoying that Sayid, who always finished the job, and is a trained assasin, can't properly shoot & kill a 14 yr old. Ugggh.
--Josh--

I know eh, it seems everyone else he's killed he's shot at least twice. oh well, this way Ben can be alive.

I also found it strange that when they re-shot the scene with the people at the pier that they changed Sayid's line.
He said If I see you again it will be very unpleasant for us both (Sayid and Ben), whereas originally he said If I see either of you again it will be unpleasant for us all (Sayid, Ben and Jack).
Don't think it means anything, but still, it was a memorable line to begin with so when I heard it in this episode I instantly new it was different.

[Perry]

this story telling device of "if it happened - it always happened" is useless. all it does is place the Losties into an archive of events that they can participate in 'or not'. we basically get to see history that happened with them as participants... until Desmond comes back to the island to change it. it eliminates 'flashbacks' where we'd have to watch a set of characters that we are alien to that would probably be quite boring. it also keeps their pay structure working getting the main characters involved.

It doesn't seem useless to me. It looks as though you've given a lot of reasons for this story telling device.

[vickih]

I also believe Ben did not die from this gunshot. Even though it's annoying that Sayid, who always finished the job, and is a trained assasin, can't properly shoot & kill a 14 yr old. Ugggh.

BUT, I disagree that it would create a paradox if he is dead. If Ben is in fact dead in this timeline, then the timeline that Sun/Lapidus are in is some sort of alternate timeline resulting from Ben's death. When they go to Othersville, it seems strangely different (despite being 3 years uninhabitted). It still has Dharma signs hanging in front of the buildings, and the Dharma photographs on the walls. I'm pretty sure these signs were not there when we saw the others living in Dharma-ville in 2004. So Ben dies... Dharma is never purged... the others never take over Othersville.. this weird alternate timeline is created, where Dharmaville is creepy and desolate and surrounded by mist. Oh and also Christian Sheppard hanging out in there, being weird. As he often is.

--Josh--

i was wondering if Sun and Lapidus are in an alternate timeline (at that moment in the scene) because Ben had not yet been shot by Sayid. Maybe the otown Sun and Lapidus saw was a town that would exist if Ben was never shot.